The Gaming Den

FrankTrollman wrote: They dumped Ki and Elemental before printing a single class for them. Which in the case of "Ki" is because people were actually angry that they attempted to make some classes get the "Asian" power source, on the grounds that that is totally racist. Which of course, it is.

Ok, I can see how it's slightly racist to give all the Asiany classes the "ki" power source when a power source is just an arbitrary label that doesn't do anything. But are people similarly offended by, say, the Pathfinder monk and ninja using a ki pool?

Ignore the class mechanics. I'm interested in whether people think it's conceptually offensive, not whether they're offended that PF monks suck and ninjas got cool abilities that should have also been given to rogues.

Dude, it's giving all Asian classes the Asian power schedule, even for classes that used to be/could totally be other things. PF Ninjas and Monks get a Ki Pool to do random shit, but the flavor isn't "everything you do is Asian magic because you're Asian".

The Samurai doesn't even mess with the idea of Ki for anything.

Yeah, that's what I was asking. (Note: I was actually asking. I'm curious where people think the line is, not trying to defend the "ki power source" in 4e.)

wotmaniac wrote: Half-orcs are products of rape

I prefer to think of them as products of cheap back alley orc prostitutes that have to make a living because their husband/fathers/brother have all been killed and their money stolen, and can't be bothered with abortions.

Edit: That way they can stay in the game.

Edit again: Proof of concept viability

ModelCitizen wrote:Ignore the class mechanics. I'm interested in whether people think it's conceptually offensive, not whether they're offended that PF monks suck and ninjas got cool abilities that should have also been given to rogues.

I think the only people who are going to be offended by it are the people looking to be offended by it, and they're going to find something anyways.

Ki/Qi/chi whatever has been used used by tons of games as a power source for a class. I don't recall ever hearing comments about it being racist, or material being pulled or re-writen until 4e got into it. Heck, 3.x had the Kensai, Drunken Master and Monk off the top of my head.

I wasn't aware that Chi meant "Power due to being asian"

It's basically an issue of whether or not everyone is Ki, or some people are Ki who may or may not be Asian, or everyone who is Asian has the Ki, and everyone who is not Asian has no Ki.

If the Monk and Ninja are explicitly Ki sourced, and everyone else is Martial/Arcane/ect. Then you are saying that the Asian characters draw power from a special source that is Asian.

If the Fighter is Ki sourced, then you are just using Ki to mean "power from within" not "Asian power from within" and it's not a big deal, just a stupid name attached to a power source.

DMReckless wrote:

wotmaniac wrote: Half-orcs are products of rape

I prefer to think of them as products of cheap back alley orc prostitutes that have to make a living because their husband/fathers/brother have all been killed and their money stolen, and can't be bothered with abortions.

Edit: That way they can stay in the game.

Edit again: Proof of concept viability

funny and disturbing.
some of them looked like actual dudes.
at least some of them had the good grace to keep their teeth out.
but WTF was up with that last one -- looked like down syndrome.

how many of you are Asian, or know Asians offended by Power Source Asian

OgreBattle wrote:how many of you are Asian

Not relevant at all. It's the internet. Everyone is in reality a 15 year old white male. That doesn't mean that racism can't be recognized or that it shouldn't be avoided.

Imagine for the moment that you had a "loa" power source and all the African classes had that one. That would actually be about as racist (maybe more) than simply Whitewashing the entire game and not having any Black people at all.

Same for deciding that every Arabic character and class had the Elemental power source. The fact that "ki" is an Asian themed word isn't even important. The important part as far as racism levels goes is that if you have a power category and that power category has unity with a skin color of humans, you're being racist.

The Ki power source was set up to have all the Asian classes in it. If there were Asian classes that didn't have the Ki power source and non-Asian classes that did, it wouldn't be a problem.

-Username17

While I can't claim to know any insight about the removal of Half Orcs in 2E, at the time I always assumed that it was linked to the removal of the Assassin class, as the Half Orc Cleric / Assassin multiclass was a very workable mode for the class. That in turn was related to the notion that the characters should be playing "good" characters and not characters deliberately geared towards evil.

In any event, it was driven by the fear of getting bad press from the Religious Right (or rahter the Chicklets).

I don't think I would have ever gotten the interracial problem, but then again my opinions on orcs at the time was strongly influenced by movies that occured when I was first introduced to AD&D in 1980 and that would have been the revamped Klingons in the first Star Trek Movie.

I can have blacks, or purples or elves, or whatever in an Asian themed world and make them monks with the ki power source. I can have a white guy in Africa, with an African class and have him use the loa power source. If I plop that same white guy down in an Arabic setting with an Arabic class, he's now using the Elemental power source.

Power sources are racist only if they're linked to your race, which I'm pretty sure they aren't (I could be wrong on that). I could still see people being offended about the culture being sterotyped, but again, everyone who wants to be offended is going to be no matter what you do.

FrankTrollman wrote:The Ki power source was set up to have all the Asian classes in it. If there were Asian classes that didn't have the Ki power source and non-Asian classes that did, it wouldn't be a problem.

I think this is a similiar problem to the anchient monk arguments. People used to argue that the monk had to be "asian" in flavor. They would demand examples of real world western martial fighting groups (of course this was before the age of the interet, so the fact that one can actually find obscure examples today didn't mean they found it back then). The fact that one really could not find real world examples of western wizards was something that they easily dismissed.

FrankTrollman wrote:[
The Ki power source was set up to have all the Asian classes in it. If there were Asian classes that didn't have the Ki power source and non-Asian classes that did, it wouldn't be a problem.

-Username17

Doesn't the fact that only 1 class uses Ki (monk) actually mean that this is pre emptive racism?

As you point out is the "asian themed fantasy" splatbook came out and the samuari was martial, the wu-gen arcane, the shugenja divine, the ninja shadow, your elephant cavalier primal, and your 6 new monk builds ki it would seem to be fine.

However, that requires that you produce said book and reveal that you were not lumping it all into one source.

Monk uses psychic. The point was that 'Special Asian (AKA "Japanese") energy' was a dumb enough idea that they dropped it entirely.

Sadly I. Suspect Ki was dropped because they couldn't come up with enough class ideas to fill it than because they realized it was a bad idea

Previn wrote:I can have blacks, or purples or elves, or whatever in an Asian themed world and make them monks with the ki power source. I can have a white guy in Africa, with an African class and have him use the loa power source. If I plop that same white guy down in an Arabic setting with an Arabic class, he's now using the Elemental power source.

Power sources are racist only if they're linked to your race, which I'm pretty sure they aren't (I could be wrong on that). I could still see people being offended about the culture being sterotyped, but again, everyone who wants to be offended is going to be no matter what you do.

But that's wrong, you fucking retard.

Having a stereotypically Asian or African power source that all of them use is racial stereotyping. It's not "Asian race developed Ki or Africans developed loa", it's "all Asian classes are Asian powered or all African classes are Africa powered". That's racist, regardless of if it can be co-opted by other colors.

Racial stereotyping is racist. It has race in the damn phrase.

Mask_De_H wrote:

Previn wrote:I can have blacks, or purples or elves, or whatever in an Asian themed world and make them monks with the ki power source. I can have a white guy in Africa, with an African class and have him use the loa power source. If I plop that same white guy down in an Arabic setting with an Arabic class, he's now using the Elemental power source.

Power sources are racist only if they're linked to your race, which I'm pretty sure they aren't (I could be wrong on that). I could still see people being offended about the culture being sterotyped, but again, everyone who wants to be offended is going to be no matter what you do.

But that's wrong, you fucking retard.

Having a stereotypically Asian or African power source that all of them use is racial stereotyping. It's not "Asian race developed Ki or Africans developed loa", it's "all Asian classes are Asian powered or all African classes are Africa powered". That's racist, regardless of if it can be co-opted by other colors.

Racial stereotyping is racist. It has race in the damn phrase.

Yeah, Starwars Episode 1 has blue skinned aliens, but it's still racist. if you have "Asian Powers" that power all the "Asian" themed classes, you're being racist. It doesn't matter if the Asians in your world are being played by purple fuzzy elves. In some ways, that's even worse.

-Username17

Mask_De_H wrote:But that's wrong, you fucking retard.

Having a stereotypically Asian or African power source that all of them use is racial stereotyping. It's not "Asian race developed Ki or Africans developed loa", it's "all Asian classes are Asian powered or all African classes are Africa powered". That's racist, regardless of if it can be co-opted by other colors.

Racial stereotyping is racist. It has race in the damn phrase.

I view racial discrimination as separate from cultural discrimination. The definition is too broad to be meaningful otherwise, and 'race' as it is typically applied is itself almost meaningless.

I don't see anything that says all "Asian classes are Asian powered." I do see "All Asian classes are Ki powered." As far as I am aware, besides the name having started in the 'East' it has no actual requirement to be Asian in race or culture to use Ki or the concept/name.

Because a culture coined a term or belief, the use of it is then automatically racist? I'm sorry if I'm not following the line of reasoning here, but I truly do not understand it.

Would an 'American class' like Cowbow with a power source of 'Grit' be racist?

WTF Previn?

In the basic game, they had Martial classes like Fighters and Rogues, Arcane classes like Wizards, and Divine classes Clerics and Paladins. Power source clearly meant "what gives you your power" like it says, rather than "where you live".

Training. Magic. Gods. Gaia. Psyche.

But Asian characters? How do they get powers? Training? Magic? Psyche? No. Ki. Which means training, but obviously an inscrutably squinty type of training. Then they didn't, because once someone points that out it's hard to ignore. And yet, here you are.

tussock wrote:WTF Previn?

In the basic game, they had Martial classes like Fighters and Rogues, Arcane classes like Wizards, and Divine classes Clerics and Paladins. Power source clearly meant "what gives you your power" like it says, rather than "where you live".

Training. Magic. Gods. Gaia. Psyche.

But Asian characters? How do they get powers? Training? Magic? Psyche? No. Ki. Which means training, but obviously an inscrutably squinty type of training. Then they didn't, because once someone points that out it's hard to ignore. And yet, here you are.

I'm not sure how 'Ki' equals where you live. It's not confined to a geographical location, a specific race, or a single culture (though the name is). Ki is the Japanese translation of Qi which in chinese roughly means 'life energy' or 'vital energy' with a literal translation of 'breath.' The same concept is found is many cultures. It's not a slang term, it's used by the Chinese, Japanese and Koreans in discussing things that typically have to do with martial arts or medicine even today. I'm not at all sure how it's discriminating.

I'm also not sure that 'Ki' equals training any more than 'Magic' equals training.

Is Orison racist to the French or Christians?

It seems to me like saying that having an 'African' fighter use an Iklwa would be racist under that line of logic. Is using a katana in game as a ninja racist? Was the use of Chakras in Magic of Incarnum racist?

I truly do not understand the jump from 'this is an Asian word' to 'racism.'

{Edit : Not trying to cause trouble, I really just am not making the connection. }

There's a bit of a hazy area between "racist" and "not racist", but having a Ki power source separate from the Martial power source is not in that hazy area.

[*]When you train over and over to unlock the powers of your body to do special techniques, you're Martial.
[*]When you train over and over to unlock the powers of your body to do special techniques and you're a class that's from Asia, you're suddenly Ki instead.

FrankTrollman wrote: Not relevant at all. It's the internet. Everyone is in reality a 15 year old white male. That doesn't mean that racism can't be recognized or that it shouldn't be avoided.

Well, saying that "Asian input on what is racism towards Asians doesn't matter, because white people can decide what it is by themselves" is rather patronizing. That's kinda what racism is right there.

If anything, the opposite is more often seen as a case of racism. Look at Airbender, very popular in America so they made a movie where this fantasy asian setting with fantasy asian philosophy is made up of a white cast, and that made George Takei mad. How much this has to do with D&D though I dunno, maybe nothing.

If the Monk and Ninja are explicitly Ki sourced, and everyone else is Martial/Arcane/ect. Then you are saying that the Asian characters draw power from a special source that is Asian.

And Paladins draw power form a specifically western, Christian source that allows them Jesus hands X times per day. Classes with specific cultural origins isn't foreign to D&D.

I see the 3e monk's superhuman athleticism as something all martial heroes should get though because that's simply what happens when you reach high levels. Beowulf being able to hold his breath for hours, Cu Chulain being able to hop off of a thrown spear, qigong and wuxia are just the Chinese expression of what's been around in world tales of great heroes.

Man, now I want the next Oriental Adventures book to have "Race: Oriental" with racial proficiency in unarmed fighting and +2 inscrutable save vs sense motive

Previn wrote:I'm not sure how 'Ki' equals where you live.

Wow.

People who pray to gods (or abstract principles) are Divine powered.
People who lift weights, stretch a lot, and do reps are Martial powered.
People who read books or trade with Fiends are Arcane powered.

People who do anything Asian themed are Ki powered.

Please stop being retarded. That's my thing. No fair making me look good by comparison.

OgreBattle wrote:Well, saying that "Asian input on what is racism towards Asians doesn't matter, because white people can decide what it is by themselves" is rather patronizing.

Actually it's generally called "empathy" or "basic human decency".

You should look into it.